S02 E02 - Mara Watts LPC & Ariane Audet: On Suicide, Mental Health Care & Systemic Changes
Faces of Postpartum—The Podcast is a show about the postpartum period and its multiple variations, hosted by Ariane Audet.
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S02E02
Mara Watts LPC & Ariane Audet - On Suicide, Mental Health Care & Systemic Changes
For the second time on the podcast, counselor extraordinaire Mara Watts sat down with our founder, Ariane Audet to talk about all things postpartum. Together they discussed their own battle with postpartum depression and anxiety.
Ariane opens up about suicidal ideations and what helped her during these trying times.
They talk about the state of perinatal mental health in the US and how treatable perinatal mood disorders and anxiety are (there is hope: so much hope.)
Full Transcript
Ariane: It's working, it's working, it's working, it's working, it's working.
Mara: Sorry. Thanks for the coffee.
You're so welcome.
Ariane: Cheers.
Mara: Cheers.
Ariane: This is sponsored by...
Mara: No, it's not. And I hate how much I like a Starbucks. Oh, I like, I hate it.
Ariane: So when I moved here... I remember going to Montreal last August and my friend, I went to see my friend where we used to live, like same neighborhood. And she said, okay, let's go to this café because it's the number one coffee shop and the area. And I was like, okay, great. And then we go there and she's like, oh no, it's closed on Monday. Let's go to number two. And we really literally have to walk like two blocks. And there's number two, which is like, oh, the line is too long. Let's go to number tree. And then there's like just one block away. And I'm like, so literally like, within a hundred meters. There's three amazing coffee shops.
Mara: When did coffee shops become a thing?
Ariane: Well, aside from the U S where you guys suck on most things related to food, it was always kind of there.
And I mean, I say that probably DC has more, but it's still like this, these massive things. Like you don't have like those nasty little toilets between two brooms, but they make the best coffee ever. Like you just, everything is so asepticized.
Mara: When I went to college and even like postgrad, you don't go out for coffee.
Ariane: You don't?
Mara: Not in college. No, that wasn't a thing really.
Ariane: Well, literally studied in coffee shops. Like this is where you go as. Yeah. Like literally so tired. I am. Yeah, you go there, like they were open 24-7 and it's just, yeah.
Mara: And maybe I'm just old. That's not what it was like. It was like grad school. There were coffee shops, not undergrads.
Ariane: Well, you had Kegels kegs.
Mara: Kegs. Kegels are a different thing. It's a vaginal exercise. Yeah, there were kegs. Yeah. Okay. Definitely not full of coffee.
Ariane: No, absolutely not. I watched a promising young woman yesterday. How was that? It was very fucking depressing.
Mara: Okay, cool.
Ariane: Yeah. I mean very expected. Nothing. Yeah. Unfortunately, out of nothing like...
Mara: Like the story of women?
Ariane: Yeah. Basically like in college and life destroyed by man raping. Damn. And then getting away with it. Cool. And bystanders and not speaking up. Yeah. It's exhausting.
Mara: It's exhausting.
Ariane: So we met today because we love each other.
Mara: We do.
Ariane: And I'm not going to fuck up your name this time. Mara.
Mara: You did it!
Ariane: I did it. I didn't say too loud, because I fuck it up now.
Mara: I like it. You get a pass.
Ariane: One.
Mara: No, like forever. Cause it sounds so beautiful.
Ariane: Mara.
Mara: Your accent.
Ariane: Yeah. Well, thank you. How are you?
Mara: Okay, how are you?
Ariane: Well, my kids. I mean, there's someone who has COVID in Lou's class. And so she has to stay with me for 14 days. And then at first, I was like, but her sister can go makes no fucking sense. And then they call me a day later to like me actually, she can't come. So you're stuck with them. And I, you know, I'm grumpy about it.
I'm not happy because yesterday not yesterday this morning as I was writing the newsletter for tomorrow. I was like, I have to come to the realization that I am a mentally ill person who thrives on medication and routine. And if you take either one of these things away from me and expect me to thrive or even just live well, this is not going to go well.
And as privileged and whatever you want to add next to my name it still means that I'm going to go downhill, might go downhill very quickly, when that happens. I don't have the transition button. It's not easy for me at all.
Mara: What I liked is that you framed it that way. Like here's what helps my particular mental health concern. It's routine. And here's, what's fucked it up the past 18 months, whatever. Yeah.
Ariane: I mean, then you have children which is disrupting in itself, but then you add anxiety, depression, you know. I'm not depressed anymore or I don't think so. But. Yeah. And, and then you feel like I'm doing everything I should, you know, I'm seeing my psychiatrist, I see my therapist. We saved money aside so we can pay for counseling. And because somehow it's not, it's not covered. Right. Therapy is not covered. And it's like someone who has a heart condition, like, well, good luck dealing with it on your own with your out-of-pocket. This is how I feel sometimes. And then you're doing it and you're sending your kids to school and you're working hard and you're trying to get grants to cover that.
And, and then there's COVID and then the same day you received the $1,200 bill for their daycare. And you're like, how about, fuck you? Like, I'm literally going to give you $600 for nothing this month.
Mara: To keep their spot essentially. Give me the money for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.
Ariane: So I'm still in the raging phase of..
Mara: I don't blame you.
I don't blame you. I also, it's interesting. What you just said too about you don't have depression anymore. Cause I was thinking about my own self, right? Like I've had depressive episodes. I'm medicated. I know what I'm looking for now. I don't know if I. Like, I'm trying to figure out, like, do I consider myself past that?
Or do I, is it just, I mean, I feel like it's just constantly monitored by myself, meaning, right. So, yeah, so we call it in, in my family in Ireland, they call depression the curse of the black dog.
Ariane: Ooh. It's like in Harry Potter like you have the grim?
Mara: Yeah. Or like the dementors, right?
Like, but that's what they used to call it. She's got, she's got the curse of the black dog. So now my husband and I used the black dog as a way of, communicating about mental health. So like, I'll say the black dogs, like creeping down the street, which means to him, like I'm feeling a little bit of the creep of the depression.
I need to do something to make sure that that guy doesn't come into our house. You know what I mean? The goal is that we don't want the black dog in our kitchen, obviously. Right. And so framing it that way has given us this really cool way of talking about mental health.
Ariane: And it's very concrete.
Mara: Very, yeah.
Ariane: You don't, you definitely don't want a black dog creeping in your, especially an uninvited.
Mara: No. Yeah, exactly.
Ariane: What I don't like with all these things. I go back to insurance because I've recently had to deal with insurance, life insurance, medical insurance they just pathologize you and then, you have to be over it because if you keep talking about it, for example, on social media, then they fucking get you. And they don't give you life insurance. It's like, you're a threat to yourself. And I'm like, well, I'm just trying to be honest with the way I feel in order not to take my own life. You know, like it's just, I feel like it's, it's just this weird balance where you always have to be on guard and, and not talk about that black dog coming. I dunno why I have a Brooklyn accent when I say dog.
Mara: A black dog. No, I get it. The way the insurance system is set up is it's, it's busted.
Ariane: It's a liability for themselves. It's not protecting you.
Mara: I don't get it though. Because when you look at, you know, I'm thinking about moms and babies, right?
Like the money that our society is outputting for not treating things is a giant amount. So if we're thinking about how to save money, why wouldn't we do all the prevention stuff and spend the money there and then not have to spend all the money, which feels, do you know what I'm saying?
So not treating a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder in the state of Virginia for a mom and a baby is like $32,000 a year for not treating it.
Ariane: And how much would that be? Like maybe $15,000 to just get her to care she needs from the get-go?
Mara: Probably less. I mean, I'm thinking, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe I'm misreading that, but that feels like a lot of money for something that could be solved within a lot less time and a lot less money.
Ariane: But to do that, you have to be concerned about the wellbeing of your comrades. You have to think that as a society, you have a role to play in everybody's well-being.
And for example, yes, I'm going to say that and I'm actually going to put it out there. Mike's friends. My husband's friends, they have, COVID. Didn't want to get vaccinated because don't believe in that, I believe the government should mandate anything. Yet, they found in a church basement, a place where they could get this infusion, you know, like the mono nucleus, something, something that Trump had after he got sick.
So they got the infusion. So they trusted to get an infusion while being incredibly sick from COVID, in a basement of a church, over getting the vaccine because they said the vaccine is not the cure. So, basically, they're not thinking in a preventive way. And I feel this is a lot, a lot of it has to do with this mentality that somehow the state should act when something is happening, but not preventively.
And this is something I've heard a lot here. Like you don't.
Mara: We just treat it once I treat is when it happens.
Ariane: Like you toughen up before that. And it just, it's not very logical. And also it's very individualist.
Mara: It's not working. It's also clear. And here we are in this society where that was touted as the most successful way to be.
Right. "I am capitalist and I'm going to, you know, succeed and the American dream", right? Yeah. We need to reevaluate that. Well, that's a given and well, I think so, but not everybody, not everybody thinks that, you know. But I think there's something to be said now, like it's not working and if we work together, where do we get?
Right. Like, let's try that.
Ariane: But I feel there are a lot, like all these people who think like that, they're just a lost, cause there's really not nothing to do with it because I know even as they are super fucking sick, they're like, yeah, I still preferred the infusion in a random church basement to this vaccine that half of the world has taken. Like no one wants to track you, Glenn from Iowa.
Like nobody cares about your face.
Mara: Take your cell phone!
Ariane: Exactly. They already have everything they need.
Mara: That's my favorite thing is like, there's, they're probably tracking us with this vaccine and it's like, they're not, but they absolutely are tracking it with the cell phone.
Ariane: Yeah. Like, why do I know it?
Like, I read something about going to your mom and then suddenly you get your mom's brand of toothpaste advertisement just because they know the IP address is shared and people around you might be interested in it. It's not even, you it's really it's, it's fantastic to think how we got there.
Like it's very impressive and also super scary. Super scary. Yeah. So we're tired, we're tired, not surprising. We're concerned about the well-being of our society. Yeah. And also we're working together on... I'm trying to frame it in a way that is not scary. I don't want to just say suicide, but I'm just going to put it out there on suicide issues and like maternal... they need to change that whole perinatal suicide awareness or something like that.
Cause it's not just mom.
Mara: Obviously. suicide surrounding this timeframe and this transition. Yeah. Right.
Ariane: The perinatal period.
Mara: Because it's one of the number one causes of death in that first year, postpartum. Is suicide.
Ariane: And it usually doesn't happen two weeks after you had the baby.
Mara: No, a few months down the road and again, you know, the research is, is truly lacking here.
Ariane: Because I guess when you die by suicide, they don't necessarily count it as maternal death, right.
Mara: Yeah. Right, right. So it's counted differently. It's not like, anyway, so there's like a lot of stuff there. And then we still don't really talk about it the way that we should.
I mean, I think that's like across all mental health issues. I don't know if you agree, but I don't think we talk about those issues, like very well or openly, and then, especially not in this postpartum period where the narrative is: this is the happiest time of your life. I know. Right? So if you feel anything less than that, which most of us don't just feel like this is the happiest time of our life.
Ariane: Have you ever met someone? Because maybe once I did, but I don't think she was telling the truth and I don't want to be dismissive because I think there are some personalities who deal better with change and just are just more fluid. And, but the happiest time of your life, like this is very challenging.
It's a lot of pressure.
Mara: It's a lot of pressure. And if it doesn't feel like that, then what?
Like, it's all going downhill from here. Cause this is the happiest I'm going to be. Do you know what I mean?
Ariane: Like you frame it like, damn.
Mara: Yeah, no, I've not met many people who felt like that first year was the most magical.
I really, I don't know if they're just not my friends or what. I mean, I think there was happiness mixed into that first year, but there were so many other things too.
Ariane: But these whole "-est", like the happiest, the best that, yeah, these are not realistic.
Like in nature, you don't have the happiest moment a squirrel will ever be! You know, it just cycles, it's seasons. It's, it's difficult moments. It's challenging moments. It's a moment of peace, a moment of numbness, a moment of a lot of boring times, so many boring moments, but the happiest and the best and the? We got to get out of this freaking narrative.
Mara: I'm trying to think about the people who said that to me, right? Like this is the happiest. And I honestly think it was people who were done raising their children. Right. Who are looking back at this time with nostalgia, nostalgia and rose-colored glasses and maybe, you know what I mean?
And I mean, their perception of it is totally different. So I think most people say the thing that makes them feel better. But we don't know that in the moment. So we think everything someone's saying is about us and nine and a half times out of 10, the thing that someone's saying is about them.
Ariane: And not just in the perinatal period, it's literally every single encounter in your life: at work, you know, in your, unless you're very, very close with someone. It's about them. Absolutely. It's absolutely always about them.
Mara: So like someone says to you, oh, you're not breastfeeding. That's about their journey that they had. Oh, you're, you know what I mean? Like, oh, you're co-sleeping or you're co-sleeping.
Oh, I wish that really means I wish I could have done that and I never considered it. Yeah.
Ariane: Or I felt shamed for doing it. And now I'm just going to transfer and process the emotion about it to you.
Mara: We just bounce our emotions off of each other. Right. Let me see how I feel about this and oh, I see you doing something and I always told myself I couldn't. So now what does that mean now that I see you doing it and it looks like you're enjoying it. Yeah. Now I have to judge my own experience. Right.
Ariane: But instead of doing that. I'm just going to dominate you try to dominate you, but with my own idea. Make me feel better about myself.
Mara: Yes. So if you can see through those, like, through that and know that, especially in this perinatal timeframe where everything is going to hit you differently, a ton of bricks. That every single thing that someone says is about them. Then it gives you a nice shield, right? Again, if your mom says, oh, you're not going to breastfeed. That's about her. Ask her about her journey and then you'll realize she has all of the, you know what I mean?
Ariane: Yeah. Or you're not saying, or you're sending your kids to daycare so early yeah. And say, okay, why didn't you, or why did you?
Mara: Yeah, she probably wishes, she went back to work sooner that person.
Ariane: Or making money or were financially, and didn't end up with three kids and a husband who cheated and divorced you. I mean, just for an example that I'm talking about, anybody we're talking about anybody.
Yep. And so all this can lead to... so I think we wanted to talk about suicide for many reasons. First off, because September was maternal suicide awareness. Now we are in October, which is pregnancy loss awareness.
So there's a lot of, yeah, as we were saying, lots of trauma-related in these months. But I also was interviewed for a piece that talked about suicidal ideation. I didn't know what it would come out. So here's the thing, when people call me and they're like, hi, I'm whatever, from whatever I'd like to talk to you, I'm like, sit down a buckle up, we're going to have a good talk of me, pacing in my office for 20 minutes and telling you everything about my life.
So maybe I should have a little bit more boundary, but this time around and I was like, okay, they come from a friend of a friend. So I guess I should trust her. I hadn't read anything about her, which in retrospect, I'm like, Jesus Christ, what are you doing? But yeah, like to be like, yes, I had suicidal ideations.
And it was not just like suicidal ideations. Like I really considered wanting to kill myself. And this whole piece was about that. And I was like, oh, that hits weird. It's like, it's very different than just talking about mental illness or depression or anxiety. I almost took my own life. Right.
Have you had suicidal ideation?
Mara: I had a really bad depressive episode where when I started to figure out how am I going to get through this? I thought maybe I needed to be removed from the situation. So I didn't have any plan or anything like that. But when I started thinking rationally about the fact that, like, how could I remove myself from the situation?
That's when I was like, this is an issue. So it didn't get any further, than that, but the scariest shit is what it is.
Ariane: And it usually starts like that. Like you feel there's no other issue than you. You're the issue. Yeah. You're the issue there. There's no other solution other than you removing yourself from this.
And so every time I hear, "don't you just want to pack a suitcase and leave?" and I'm like, okay, you packed a suitcase. That's a good thing. When then, you know, if you pay attention to your friends and then the suitcase disappears and it's just like walking out the door, no suitcase. It's just like, you see something as kind of devolving.
There's a couple of red flags to me when people talk to me, what are your red flags? Especially since you're a therapist about suicide specifically. Suicide and suicidal ideation. And not necessarily just in the perinatal world
Mara: I mean, we always ask about, you know, a plan, like, have you thought about what she would do, you know?
And then, means. So like what, what that means is like, if I say to you, yeah, I've thought about it. I would shoot myself. And then they say, do you have access to a gun? And I say, no, I have no idea where I would even get a gun. Then you might have the plan, but you don't have the means. Does that make sense?
So if you have the plan and the means, yeah, that's what we're assessing as like, that's, that's an emergency. Right. But we also don't want, if you're starting to think kind of, I think what you thought, which was like rationally, I'm the problem. And these people would be better off if I were removed from this situation.
I mean, that's the start of a really dangerous narrative.
Ariane: Right? Yeah. And usually you are met with, "don't say that!", first off, because people cannot fathom the idea, you know, people around you. If first off, if you voiced that it's already kind of serious. You know, if you've always said to people, if you've always asked, even if it's just a joke it's already serious, but then, since people are so uncomfortable with that idea, because it's painful because it's difficult, what you're meant with is, well, "you're not serious, right?" Or, well, you wouldn't do that, right. Or don't say that because it hurts again. It's about them. It's just then what.
Mara: Then what? I mean, I I've had a lot of success calling out the fact that I feel like this is a really hard conversation.
Right. And just own, like, I don't feel willing to take a bet on whether you're going to do it or not. Like I don't, I'm not gonna do it. So let's figure out, what's figure something out.
Ariane: It's funny, because people are very reluctant to talk about it and yet once you name it, usually it's like an electroshock.
It makes it real for the person. Right? It's like it validates the feeling. And we all know that once you validate the feeling, they tend to not go away, but feel less heavy.
Mara: Less heavy. Yeah. Because like you named a dog. You know, you had the black dog. No. Cause secrets, fuel shame. And then the shame fuels the secret.
Right. So if we can now say, okay, that secret shame spiral is now broken or yeah. Right. You don't need to have shame about that thought. That thought is scary and it, and it represents something that's going on in your brain that can be treated. Right. So how did it work for you? Because you're still here, which is great news for everybody.
So what, how did that work out for you? How did you get help?
Ariane: Well, I had, I had handled it's funny because when I talk to psychiatrists and therapists, the one that if, if there are new, the first thing I tell them: So, listen, I've been obsessed with death since I'm like, I've been since eight years old, so I've thought about dying and what it means.
And so I'm that kind of, yes. You know, like I didn't choose literature for no reason and I'm not really into like philosophy for no reason. You know, I really like to dig deep and dive into these things and I had times in my life for various reasons where I thought I should probably die. So it was not completely uncommon to, for you to think for, you know, for me to think like, oh, that's very appealing.
There's like something sexy around it. And, and it, for the better or worse it's been fueled by what I've read and, you know, so I've explored that idea before. I also self-harmed as a teenager, so there was a couple of red flags.
But what changed this time or that time was that I had a kid. And so my whole, I was not playing in the same field if I may say, like, it was kind of fun to think about it and there was a romanticism around being an emo girl -- that is also damaging. Let's be honest. Let's be real here. Like it's not something that I encourage anyone to do.... You know, like the manic pixie girl, this is not cool to think about that. We, we got to stop thinking that women, especially girls who have mental health issue is something quirky and fun, you know? TV shows. You got to stop doing that. That's a first, second. When I started having these ideations or these thoughts after I had Lou suddenly it was not sexy anymore because I was not going in bars getting drunk or feeling depressed. I was stuck at home with spit ups, my nipples were cracked and I was alone.
So there was no audience to feed my, I don't know, quirkiness in the face of death. So it just felt really fucking scary. Yeah. Because suddenly I had no idea. How do you call that? Like no point of I couldn't grasp on anything.
Mara: You had no, like coping, I mean, not that I'm like, yeah. I go out drinking, but it sounds like that served.
Ariane: No, there was no more. I had no more tools in my toolbox. I couldn't. And then I was like, okay, I'm just going to write, but I was way too tired. And I was way too tired to use art as it was just like, I just couldn't use the same tools I used to. And therapy didn't really do it, or I didn't feel like it would do anything.
I didn't want to talk about it, which was kind of the first. And you're like, yeah, I don't want to talk about it. Well, wait a minute. If you don't want to talk about, it means like there's something shameful here or you're too exhausted or something is going on physically. Sure. And so. When I started hearing it was not voices, but it was just like very clear, like you got to kill yourself, you got to disappear.
The knives became very appealing. And I had started to see a therapist like a week before, which is usually how I work my patterns like, okay, I'm getting too deep. I'm going to get a therapist and I'm going to tell her it's about something else, they're going to see through me. And they're going to take, hopefully take me seriously.
And you know, it's a, it's a big bet because it's a big gamble. If you fall, if you find someone who's not quite qualified, it might backfire and it could have backfired. Luckily it didn't. So I just texted, I texted Elizabeth, who was my therapist and I was like, hi, I'm having very clear suicidal ideations. I don't have a plan. And this is, this is what's tricky also when you're literate and educated in the matter is that you kind of know how to rig the system. But I was like, I don't want to rig the system, but I don't think I have a plan, but it's very clear that I need to die. So what do I do? And she wrote exactly what I expected her to do.
She was like, you are going to the ER right now. Yeah. I'm texting your husband and you're going to do. And so I went to the ER and usually it's a cold shower because it's very real and you see other people and you feel are like you're taking other people's time, which for someone like me is very serious.
So if I'm taking somebody else's time, especially a doctor, a figure of authority, which is very hard, then it means something is happening. I'm going to downplay it on. Sure. It's, I'm absolutely going to downplay it and try to wiggle my way out of it. But at least I knew that if I was there meant like, okay, someone is taking me seriously and ultimately is the little girl inside of me who just wants someone to be like, Hey, you're worthy, I'm not mad at you. You're not in trouble. You don't have to get over it by yourself and I will help you.
Mara: Did they do that at the ER?
Ariane: Somehow they did. It was at Fairfax. And I've heard, it's funny when I did the training with you, you're like, oh, you got lucky. She was, she was an amazing doctor and the nurse, there was just very compassionate and very sweet and very like, Hey, we see people like you not often, but often enough and you're not alone and we're going to get you through this. I felt she was a little too cheerful about this, and it's like, please restrain from smiling. But they were super nice, you know? And they allowed usually there's a pediatric ER, so Lou was not allowed at first.
But then I was nursing and they knew breastfeeding was a huge issue for me. So it was like, okay, we're going to let your husband and your, your daughter to come in. Even though there might be like a lot of it was before, COVID obviously might be a lot of sick people around you. We're going to let you nurse and it's going to calm you.
And they were kind of versed in to the whole hormonal process and they were really willing to help. And then two days later, well, all throughout this experience, they were talking about going to UNC. Because Elizabeth was really adamant that he could help me. And then two, three days later I was still, you know, in the middle of my living room, crying on the floor and Elizabeth was like as gently and firmly as she could, I think it's time. It's time. You got to go it's time. It's time. Yeah. And I was like, I really don't want to, but it's time. And she just kept repeating. And at some point she said something like. It's serious. You might not see it, but it's serious. You going to have to trust me.
And I was like, oh, this is what I had, what I needed to hear all this time. Someone's going to take care of me.
Mara: That little girl you talked about, right? Like, let me, I'm in charge. I got you. Give her this power. I got you. Yeah. And I do think that's part of it, right. Is because I think you highlighted a lot of what people should know when they're dealing with new moms or asking questions. Which is that is shameful. It feels shameful. So if you can just feel the secret, you're helping cut that shame that you express. Like, I would like to help you figure this out. Right. So even if you don't know what to do, let me, I don't know what to do, but let me help you figure that.
Ariane: So that person that doesn't feel alone.
Mara: So that that person doesn't feel alone. And they feel like someone has that inner child that you talked about and is sort of scooping them up and they got you. Right. And then the other thing is like how treatable, this is. Super, super treatable.
So like I, when we talk about suicide and the trainings and stuff, I know people sort of like panic. And I get it. But I also want like on the flip side to say, like, "a hundred percent of these moms can get well, again.
Ariane: Especially when it comes to perinatal issues. Like we're talking about a very precise moment in people's lives and very precise set of hormones and cocktail of stuff going on.
So many things.
Mara: So treatable, so treatable. So I'm just glad you had good people around you. And it sounds like, you know, got you kind of covered pretty well.
Ariane: Yeah. And I would say that when you land into a psychiatric ward, even if it's not the perinatal one, because I've had parents on the project tell me stories about going to, you know, a general psychiatric ward and they pat your clothes to figure out if you hid a razorblades or you're not allowed to have shoes with lace. It's like, it, it just, it's very real, very quickly. And you're like, oh, fundamentally, this is not where I wanted to head.
Like, there's literally, it's funny that little girl gets really, it's very impressive. Like not impressive in like in a good way, but just like, it's spectacular. I can't really in French it's "impressionnant" which means like, you're like, This is, this is very big. Like this is a big deal.
This is a big deal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So you're like, well, I didn't really mean it that way. And you're like, well, too late, you kind of did. And this is what happens and it's not a bad feeling. I know I make it sound like it's just like, oh, okay. There's a lot of people here wanting me to get well. So I guess I better get well!
Mara: It's nice to have an answer to about what's happening for you. I remember when I first got diagnosed with depression, like I was like skipping out of the psychiatrist office because I was like, This is a thing. There's a name plan. There's a name. I don't have to feel like this forever.
Like, it felt really good to know what was going on in my brain. Right. So I'm guessing it's similar in that way. You know? I mean, when I had postpartum anxiety, it was nice to have that name like, oh, This is what it is. It has a name because so many people have it that they had to give it a name.
Ariane: It's in the book.
Mara: It's in the book.
Ariane: You know, we talk a lot about figure of authority and, and hospitals. It's funny. I would trust a psychiatrist... yes, I'm going to say it... a hundred times more than I would trust an OB, like based, not on the individuals, but based on the system and how it's taught and how it's implemented in med school. Psychiatry so much more advanced in term of individual care and trauma informed care, and they really don't want you to stay there forever. No, it's like, it's not, it's not a nut house. It's not what it used to be. It's not how it's portrayed in the media and the movies. They're really just wanting to get you stabilized and for you to have a nice life. They're so understanding about relapse and how long it takes and patience. And it's just like, of course, you're going to have idiotic people everywhere, but usually I've from personal experience and what I've encountered interviewing people, psychiatry folks are far more the way it's set, settled or taught right now, it's far more comforting. And I trust them far more than, than the way a obstetric is taught.
Mara: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're lagging on some of this. Yes. This information, but yeah. I mean, I think generally, hopefully, these, these doctors want to, and if they don't you go somewhere else. Yes. You're not stuck with who you first went to, so yeah. You want to feel supported and listened to. And, and, and like, you have a plan moving forward that leads you to wellness and, you know, kind of reconnecting with people. So that's what you like. If you have somebody that you're trying to help, that's what I'm trying to like, I'm trying to talk, you know, kind of like that's what you want is you want to find somebody who knows what they're doing, who can offer you a path forward.
And, and then for you to know how treatable this is.
Ariane: Yeah, you don't have to die by suicide as a new mom. It's like, there's you, don't, I'm telling you, you don't have to die.
Mara: And if you feel like that is a, a realistic option, know that that is part of the disease. Yes. Right? It, it, it sits in your brain and it tells you in your own voice, you should think about this.
You should really think about this and that's part of the illness. So if that's happening for you, you know, please reach out and, and, and tell somebody. Right. I mean, that's what we're trying to like get across here. Don't don't do it.
Ariane: Don't do it. Don't. Tell somebody. And even if it means tell somebody that you might not know that well, but we all have this gut feeling and trust your instinct on that.
You can trust that person, even if she's not a super close friend, even if she's not a parent, it's like when we tell children, go tell an adult. Well find an adult like a real adult in your life, whether it's a professional, whether it's a pharmacist or, you know, there are kind hospitable, welcoming people who you just feel you can trust in life, go to that person like, and they will help you.
Or email us.
Yeah, absolutely. We know where we have recently noticed. I know, but if, if like, you know, if you're like at the grocery store, just go home or talk to someone, you just, there's always someone who's going to be willing to help you the right way. Yup. There's going to be idiotic piece of shit. Oh God, in these cases, usually people listen and there's hotlines, and I will add these in the show notes.
There's a lot of resources out there.
Mara: Yeah, don't do it. I mean, it gets it, it gets better.
Ariane: It does. I hated when people said, I fucking hate it, dad. I know. Like I just felt like they were so condescending.
Mara: I know but you'll miss too many. Good, good things. Yeah. If you do that.
Ariane: Like we have other episodes we're going to do together. You'll miss that. You'll miss that!
Mara: Don't do it. We're really funny. No, but I think, I think, I do think like, even if we can say, like reach out to us and we will find you help like that, that's like the whole purpose of having gone through this. This Is my meaning making for having gone through this is now I'm going to be, oh, I mean, we're going to push, we're going to push the envelope here. We're going to push for change. Right. We're going to start a revolution. And part of that is if you need someone to talk to you, like here we are.
Ariane: Yeah. Yeah, here we are. And, and luckily social media have, has a lot of bad sides, but there's also a lot of good in that where there's a lot of villages and tribes and people who have gone through that on it.
So we got you. Yeah.
And it's interesting when you say it's, it's what I decided to do. Like the meaning I decided to attach to this experience. And I remember before going through any of this, I always thought it was kind of funny, you know, all these moms advocating out there, I'm like, don't you have anything better to do.
And it was very judgmental and sexist and internalized misogyny. And now I'm like, oh yeah, well, no one ever has ever done that for us. So yeah, of course we need to do that. And having this talk this week with my therapist, I was like, the world is so heavy right now. I feel, you know where you said I'm going to push the envelope.
And this is what our work is. This is what we're doing with our work. And I was like, I just feel so heavy. I feel it's useless. I feel it's pointless sometimes. Why, why are we doing this? And the world is burning and our children are going to die on a planet that's going to explode. And he was like, yesssss.
I was like, how do you, what do you say to your patient? And he started talking about intergenerational healing. Or heritage and transmission. And he's like, you're just part of a bigger story. You know, your work in this world is part of what people before you have started to do and people who will come after you will carry on.
Elizabeth said the same thing, actually, this it what mainly saved me. She was like, you're standing on the shoulders of all the women who came before you and all of those who will come after you. And I didn't understand the, all of those after you, but I love it because now I'm like, there's going to be people after me.
They're going to keep doing the work. It's very hopeful. It is hopeful. And it's not just like a labor of love. It's a labor of hope. And, and this idea that we're not doing it in a vacuum not only in our present world, but also we're continuing the past work or the work that has been done by others in the past and the work that will also be done in the future by others.
And, and other moms and other parents and other advocates.
Mara: And connectedness.
Ariane: And the connectedness and the interdependency of it, like to think that you're not alone, not only you are not alone, but we have to do this together because as a species, we won't survive.
Mara: Right. Right. And, and we're just going to keep doing it.
And even if it's slow right now, because we're heavy, right. We've talked about how heavy. Life has felt. I think for me, it's been like, okay, well then you go slow right now, but you're still pushing this, you know, this cause down the road. Right.
Ariane: And if you're not pushing a cause you'd keep moving.
I like, have you ever watched, well, world war Z with Brad Pitt, the zombie movie? Anyway, anyway, in the movie, there's a scene where he's like movement is life. Movement is life. And I always thought, if you just keep moving, you're going to stay alive.
Which sounds kind of freaking basic, but it's not: movement is life. And so when I had hard days, I would just keep thinking about Brad Pitt and saying movement is life. Just keep moving. So the zombies are not going to get to you. Even if that means just take a shower.
Mara: Or float! Watch a movie, take your anti-anxiety meds, do it, just do what, but we're just going to keep on and it doesn't have to be today, but in general, we're just pushing, ever so slightly on whatever thing, that means something to us.
Ariane: Do you want to talk about your mantra?
Mara: Yeah. I started this mantra in COVID, and I say it to myself every night. And it's something like: "This is really hard. You're doing a good job. Just keep showing up." That's it.
Ariane: And I remember when you said that the first time Mike was there and he's like you say that every night, like this is really hard?
Mara: Yes. It's really HARD. Men.
Ariane: Men. It's like, we want to go there?
We don't want to go there. We love our husbands.
Mara: No, but I said to him, my husband the other day, so this like the girl scout, like the Daisy vest, came home and there's like all these patches that have to be put on it. This is for Girl Scouts.
Ariane: So your kids are in girl Scouts?
Mara: Ada is, yeah. So she had this vest came home and whatever, and I was like, listen, I need you to listen because this vest is a metaphor for everything about the mental load. Okay. And I was like, this vest is sitting here in our kitchen and you probably haven't even looked at it or acknowledged its presence. Or if you did you thought, "huh? That's nice." But this vest, to me, represents a thing I don't know how to do that. I have to figure out that I have to, like, I have to take care of it. And I was like, and that is the difference between mothering and fathering in this world right now is that this thing comes home and it's now on my to-do list.
It's heavy. It's sitting here.
Ariane: You know, it's interesting. I thought you were going to say all the little badges is a metaphor for mental load.
Mara: No, the actual, like, I don't know how to sow! I didn't know that was a pre fucking requisite for having kids and having them do girl Scouts. And then someone's like, oh, just iron it.
I don't even fucking know if I have an iron. Right. So like, whatever, it doesn't matter. I will figure it out. That is also the point. That is also the point is that I'll figure it out and she'll have her vest and it'll be fine. And my husband won't have thought about it for longer than two minutes and I will have thought about it and arranged for someone to handle it'cause I can't do it.
Ariane: You can send it to me or whatever.
Mara: Yeah, that's fine. And, but the, but do you know what I mean? Like, so I was able to show him in that moment, like these, this is just one small example of the things that come through this house that I take care of and you never think about.
Ariane: And you see, it's funny. I said, you can just give it to me. I can sow, which is true. And this is also an exemplary and an example of how the mental load get passed not in the right direction. Like instead of passing it to people in power who might benefit from being just more aware of their surrounding, we just pass it to each other, like fucking baking sales and stuff. Like, why are we in charge of that? This is bullshit. And of course, you know, like it's different in every family and we're really talking about heteronormative families.
Mara: No, for sure. But it was, it was just a nice example to be able to present. Like, here's this one thing that represents so many other things to me.
Ariane: It's a black dog and its own way.
Yeah.
Mara: So, yeah. So on we go, I will figure out how to do that this week. And we'll carry on. We'll carry on. No biggie. But I think, yeah, I mean, I, I do think part of what you just said is, you know, it highlights too though like how much we support each other. Like you don't even think about it. You were like, I got you. I'll do that. I've got you.
Ariane: Right. Thank you for seeing the, the silver lining of this thing where I just went: bloody hell!
Mara: No, no. But I do think there is that, which is like, there's, there's always somebody who's going to be like, I can help you with that.
So I think it's that interconnectedness that really saves that weight from feeling too, too heavy. Right. I'll figure it out. Cause there's somebody who knows how to do that. And there's something else down the road that I'll know how to do that. I can help you with it. It's just so there's that. But I, I did feel the need to point it out. Shittily.
Ariane: Yeah. About the vest. Yeah. Yeah. It's an amazing metaphor.
Mara: Thank you.
Ariane: Did you want to add. Do we have anything else?
Mara: No, I think wrap up, I think the wrap-up is onward, is keep walking, keep walking. If you can't walk float.
Ariane: If you can't walk, float.
Mara: And reach out there's there's people to help.
Ariane: There's someone else always.
Mara: Always. Don't just do it by yourself.
Ariane: It's pointless first of. It's exhausting. It's much funner to find a friend is trying to share that with.
Mara: Hang on and we're here if you need us.
Ariane: Yeah. We're here. Thank you, Mara. Yeah. Did I say it right? Yeah.